Chen Guiqiu, Chen Jiangang, Cao Yaxue, July 28, 2020

Beginning on July 9, 2015, the Chinese regime suddenly launched operations against human rights lawyers and activists, arresting dozens of people in Beijing and many other cities across the country. In addition, during the recent 709 crackdown, about 300 lawyers were interrogated, warned, or briefly detained. One of the arrested was Xie Yang, a lawyer from Changsha, Hunan. From the fall of 2016 to the beginning of 2017, his family and lawyers exposed the torture he suffered. This was the first exposure, and later 709 other detainees also responded.

In March 2017, the Chinese state media, in order to deny the torture of Xie Yang and the strong opposition from the international community, mass smeared Xie Yang’s lawyer and wife who fled to Thailand but was captured by Chinese agents... Obviously, Beijing’s target It was to capture all the parties involved in the case and let them "admit" that the allegations of torture were fabricated. These video interviews with Xie's wife Professor Chen Guiqiu and Xie's defense lawyer Chen Jiangang (both safe now in the United States) present the most unusual episode of the 709 crackdown. 

Chen Guiqiu: My name is Chen Guiqiu, the wife of Xie Yang, a human rights lawyer who was arrested in 709. On July 10, the day my husband was arrested, I spent two years fighting for his release; after that, I took our two daughters to the United States. I live in Texas now. 

Cao Yaxue: What were you doing when Xie Yang was arrested? 

Gui Qiu: Before I left China, I was a professor at Hunan University. I research and teach environmental science engineering.   

This is summer vacation, so all students are on vacation. But I participated in a research project, a new agricultural construction project, which aims to help agricultural communities make better use of energy and better coexist with the environment. We collected relevant data, studied energy use plans, solid waste and wastewater treatment plans, and proposed a series of ecological agriculture improvement plans. 

During that time, I was outside almost every day, driving around several towns in Changsha County with my students. 

YC: Can you talk about where Xie Yang is, when was he arrested, and what is he doing? 

Guiqiu: Before being arrested, Xie Yang told me that he was going to Huaihua (Huaihua) to handle a case of forcibly demolishing a reservoir, affecting tens of thousands of rural residents. During the journey, he brought an assistant to familiarize himself with the case. Later, I heard from another lawyer that he was arrested. 

The lawyer who told me was very anxious, and I was also very worried. He said: "Xie Yang has been arrested. You have to prepare some money and clothes to send to the Changsha Public Security Bureau. Xie Yang needs these things." I was stunned: My husband was arrested just like this when he went out on a trip. There was no warning. So I was panicked, and I was really frightened by the overwhelming uncertainty. I prepared things that night and went to Changsha Public Security Bureau the next day. 

A lawyer accompanied me to the police station. We walked from office to office, but no one told us who to ask for information about Xie Yang's case. Finally, attorney Zhang Chongshi made several phone calls and was confirmed by the Legal Affairs Office of the Public Security Bureau. I left him the money and clothes. But they didn't tell me the specific situation of Xie. They only told me where to put the things I brought, and then let me go. 

YC: Have you received any court documents related to the arrest within the time specified by the law? 

Guiqiu: I did receive the document mailed to my home, and said that Xie Yang was designated for residential surveillance for disrupting court order. 

When I saw the words "designated residence under residential surveillance", I thought it was Xie Yang who was under residential surveillance somewhere. So I later tried to get them to reveal where he was held in RSDL, tell me the address, and let me see him. I made a request to live with him. All of these were rejected, or more precisely, I did not receive any response. 

YC: After Xie Yang was arrested, what kind of difficulties did you encounter? 

Gui Qiu: I remember that [the authorities] would often send people to visit me instead of individuals; they are from Hunan Public Security Department, Changsha Public Security Bureau, Hunan University Security Department, University Management Office, and they usually send people...from these places Oh, and the Hunan Provincial Procuratorate came to the campus to interrogate me... These interrogations took place many times. Sometimes they happen in our department, sometimes in the president's conference room, and sometimes in the security office. 

YC: What kind of things would they ask? 

Guiqiu: They asked me if I had contacted other lawyers arrested in the 709 crackdown or their family members, such as Wang Qiaoling and Li Wenzu. Have I been interviewed by overseas media? Have I ever said or written about Xie Yang's situation. They asked me to do what they said; in exchange, they said they would protect all the rights that Xie Yang guaranteed by law. For this, I need to cooperate. If I don't do this, there will be consequences. Xie Yang will end badly and he will be sentenced. They said, "We don't want to see this happen", so I have to cooperate with them. 

YC: After Xie Yang was arrested, what did you do besides giving him clothes?

Gui Qiu: Sometimes I go to various institutions several times a week, basically at least once a week. My appeal is: I want to communicate with Xie Yang. He has the right to meet with a lawyer, and the lawyer must know the details of Xie Yang's case. At the same time, because the lawyer's rights and my rights have been violated, I want to lodge a complaint with the procuratorate. This is my requirement for procuratorates and public security organs at all levels. What impressed me the most during this process was that I was completely ignored and no one gave me any response at all. Finally, when you have worked hard and finally knocked on the door of the office and asked the staff: "Who shall I give these materials to?" "Who is responsible here?" When you finally meet a person, that person does nothing. Say, do not promise any details, nothing, they do not guarantee any of my rights. No one gave me the right to communicate, nor did I give my lawyer the right to meet with clients, and they would not let the meeting happen. 

In other words, you end up spending a lot of time, energy, and emotion on this, but you still don’t know if you have really made any progress in finding the right person on the other side, and you don’t know if you’re on the right side again. Or if you find the person you are looking for. The same is true for the prosecutor’s office, taking your information and not replying to you.

Once, Zhang Zhongshi and I went to the Legal Affairs Office of the Changsha Public Security Bureau to find the person in charge of the Xie Yang case. 

I send clothes and books, one big package at a time. I hope to get some information about the Xie Yang case from the staff of the Legal Affairs Department. I asked the people there how long the RSDL will last, but he said he has nothing to tell me in particular. I said: "He has been detained for more than a month, so he should be released soon." Reply: "Almost there? The RSDL lasts for six months. Check back in half a year." I felt very broken. I thought Xie Yang would be out soon, and counted down the days waiting for him to be released from prison. But now this person tells me to come back within 6 months after the RSDL period is completely over. I couldn't bear the blow, and I started crying in front of him. I left the room humiliatingly, crying harder. That's the way it is.

YC: Xie's first defense attorney was Zhang Zhongshi. What other lawyers represent him? 

Gui Qiu: At first it was Zhang Zhongshi from Xiangtan, traveling back and forth between Changsha and Xiangtan. But when he proved that we could not guarantee our rights, the lawyer Lin Qilei (Lin Qilei) stepped in. 

Zhang Zhongshi really worked hard. Sometimes he came twice a week, and this situation lasted for a long time: he would drive to Changsha, and we would walk around. He never gave up. He will arrive in the morning. If we make an appointment with the police, we will meet at the police; if we are dating the procuratorate, we will meet at the gate of the procuratorate. Then we inquired around in the office, knocked on the door, submitted materials, and talked to the staff inside—some of them were just receptionists—about our requirements. Zhang Zhongshi knocked on these doors and also helped me understand the law, the procuratorate, the public security and other powerful organizations. 

YC: What kind of event or scene impressed you? 

Gui Qiu: One day Zhang and I went to the Changsha Procuratorate to appeal. When we got there, we entered an office. Zhang handed our materials to the staff and told him that we needed to complain and that we needed the right to meet [with Xie]. The young prosecutor browsed the document Zhang and gave it to him, saying, "You are an old lawyer, and you don't know the laws and regulations. These requirements of yours are illegal." The young man in his thirties reprimanded severely. open. 

Seeing that young prosecutor, I was irritated, and there was a kind of rebellious indignation, which was really unacceptable. 

Zhang said to him: "Let me see the decree you just explained." The prosecutor hasn't published related articles for a long time, but he has been spraying a series of ugly nonsense, "An old lawyer like you, you have done so much. In the case, you don't even understand this legal clause; who taught you Chinese? Who taught you the law?" He scolded Zhang like this. Mr. Zhang was not angry and continued to explain his interpretation of the law calmly. 

YC: Your life is turned upside down. How is your teaching situation at the university? 

Guiqiu: The school gave me a lot of pressure. The dean even wanted to install a surveillance camera at the entrance of the building, specially prepared for me. Because there was someone from the entrance who could watch me, they gave up. At the same time, they want to monitor my whereabouts 24 hours a day. Someone lives in my house and follows me in the office. I strongly oppose this.

Around the Spring Festival of 2016, in January or early February, Wang Qiaoling and her son drove south from Beijing and met several people including me. This is a very important beginning for me, the beginning of my fight for Xie Yang. She prayed for me, which gave me strength. I learned from her that there are several wives in Beijing. They believed that we needed to save our husbands as firmly as I did, so we were called "709 wives" later on.

I also seek help from lawyers everywhere. Every time I have no class and finish my homework, I will take the train to visit a lawyer like Chang Boyang; I also go to Guangzhou to see Sui Muqing.

Among the lawyers in Changsha, I have received help from many people, including Wen Donghai, who later had his license revoked for representing Wang Yu, one of the 709 lawyers detained, and announced his withdrawal from the Communist Party. The party was suppressed as a result. Hu Linzheng also helped me a lot. He is Xie Yang's partner, and the two have acted for many cases together. There is another partner of Xie Yang, Cai Ying.

There are many other people whose names are not convenient to mention here, but they gave me a lot of support. It is safe to say that if it were not for the support of local lawyers in Changsha every day, I would meet with them regularly and accept their greetings and encouragement. Without them, I might have given up long ago, and I would not "until today."

YC: In our previous conversation, I remember you said that you received a mysterious call and someone called you at three in the morning. What was that just now?

Gui Qiu: When Xie Yang was detained for about a month, in the summer of 2015, August 2015 to be precise, I received a series of mysterious calls for several consecutive nights. I don't know that person or number. When did I receive these calls? In the middle of the night, around 3 in the morning, because I took students out to collect data during the day, I was always tired at night, so I turned off my mobile phone to sleep. The first night I received the call, my cell phone was turned off, but when I turned it on in the morning, I saw a missed call around 3:00 in the morning. The next day I didn’t turn off my cell phone and received a call, but I slept. Got it. If I remember correctly, I was called three times in a row. Then I called back, but no one answered for the first time.

I've never met such a person before, and kept calling in the middle of the night, so I thought something must have happened. Later, I called again. This person said it was not convenient to talk, but we made an appointment to meet somewhere, and then we hung up. I am very nervous; how can I meet someone I have never seen before in the middle of the night, and I only talk to him on the phone, in a place I have never been before? I was scared.

But if it's about Xie Yang, then I have to go. Receiving such a call is a great encouragement for me. I contacted a lawyer and a friend who was actually a relative. I said I want to do this, I want them to understand what is going on, support me, and accompany me to the meeting. Then, in the evening... the lawyer friend did not go, but stayed by his cell phone. My relative works in Changsha, and the two of us went. He also bought two packs of cigarettes, high-end, packed in a black silk bag, tucked under the armpit, and we went in.

We made an appointment to meet in the restaurant after eight o'clock in the evening, I remember. We went in and said we wanted to see someone, and someone came out immediately.

He is thin, not tall, and looks a little plain in casual clothes. He told me that he had met Xie Yang, and Xie Yang gave him my number, hoping that he can contact me and I can save him. I said, "Where did you see him?" He didn't tell me. "Where do I need to rescue Xie Yang?" He dared not tell me this information. His speech was also vague, and he didn't dare to elaborate. Obviously, he was also scared. Then we thought about what to do and how to save Xie Yang. I am naturally willing to make a guarantee, "I will not treat you badly, I will pay you." We came up with a plan, but we thought it was not good. The whole process of talking to him was full of fear, including myself. What am I afraid of? Well, I am worried that he is fishing. Is he here to lure me into a trap? These are my thoughts. His fear, because we can clearly see that he was scared, although I could not guess at the time, now I know his fear is that he will be discovered by the police.

YC: Did he mention torture?

Guiqiu: He didn't talk about torture, but he said Xie Yang needed help, and he had a bad time there, so he asked him to tell me and ask me to help. But he did not provide too many details. Looking back, I think he knows more details, but he dare not say, dare not say Xie Yang was beaten or something. Around that time, torture was the most serious. He was arrested in July, and I also met this person in August. At this time, Xie Yang was deprived of sleep, we only learned about it later. His feet were swollen and he had been sitting on a stool for a long time, unable to move, and was constantly beaten.

After Xie Yang came out, I checked the information with him. Everything that this person told me was true, but I severed contact with him out of fear, and because we were not sure how to plan the next step.

I have a friend in the national security department, and I asked him how to deal with this matter. He assured me that this kind of thing was impossible, and told me not to trust this person. I finally did not pursue the matter further.

This friend is a close friend. Not classmates, but our two families are very close. Before Xie Yang was arrested, we often went out to play together, and the children also played together, which was very friendly. But at this critical moment, when Xie Yang needed help, he was on the side of the Communist Party.

YC: In January 2016, Xie Yang was formally arrested and charged with "inciting subversion of state power" and "disturbing court order." I remember that in the fall of 2016, you started to expose how he was tortured...

Gui Qiu: At this time, I have more sources of information and I have more exchanges with the outside world. I no longer believe in the Public Security Bureau, the Procuratorate, nor in the Guobao and friends in Guoan, so I didn't keep in touch with them. I got a lot of information during this time. You know that I am from Changsha, a native city. I was born there and went to school there for so many years, so I have classmates from elementary school, high school, university, and my graduate and doctoral programs. I have changed majors several times, from undergraduate chemistry to soil science to environmental engineering, so I have classmates in many fields, many of whom are still in Changsha.

Some of them are very friendly. My friend who works at National Treasure, I got some information from him. In addition to the information of friends, classmates, and classmates and friends, I also got information from the detention center, which also has my contact information.

What I found was that Xie Yang said that he was under surveillance in the detention center and was not allowed to use money. Everyone around was instructed to monitor him and not let others talk to him. During Xie Yang's six-month RSDL, he also told me some details. Xie told him about it. 

We met at a restaurant. I am very angry. To be honest, I am in a state of fearlessness and I no longer worry about losing my job. No matter how the dean threatens me, I am not afraid, because this job is no longer important to me.

YC: How did they threaten you?

Guiqiu: He didn't say it clearly, but he would warn me: "Chen Guiqiu, don't do this. If this continues, it will be very difficult for us. Sometimes, we must obey the decision of the superior. Recently someone has been fired, don't you know? How do you take care of your two children without a job? Your husband is locked up, can you think about how you will spend the rest of your life?" They said something like this; never thought they would fire me now. Nothing like that, their The threat is more subtle.

What was I like back then? Well, I am in a very excited state. On the way to the detention center, I was yelled at by the dean, shaking involuntarily. I drove to the detention center on the highway, and then met with a lawyer; or I went to save money for Xie Yang, and at the same time I sent the results of my interview to our WeChat group for everyone to update. No matter how the school controls my speech or makes implicit threats, I am fearless. I felt completely liberated in my heart, and I was no longer as restrained as before. In order to save Xie Yang, money is not considered, and work is not considered. These are not problems.

YC: I remember it was reported that Mr. Zhang went to see Xie Yang and witnessed him being beaten.

Gui Qiu: In November 2016, Zhang reached an agreement with Guobao to allow him to see Xie Yang. However, there was one condition; he had to persuade Xie Yang to plead guilty. Zhang agreed to this and was able to see him. This does not guarantee that he has the right to meet his clients, because this is out of date. When he saw Xie Yang, he didn't persuade him to confess, but he witnessed a scene when he was there. The guard in the detention center...While Zhang was waiting for Xie Yang in the conference room on the second floor, he heard Xie Yang crying on the first floor. Why? The staff in the detention center beat him with fists and demanded his obedience. I don't know what happened between them, but they beat him openly.

When Zhang saw Xie Yang, he could see his head bleeding. Think about it; what would Xie Yang suffer if his lawyer could witness this kind of treatment without a lawyer present? Naturally, seeing all this made Zhang very angry. After he returned, he, Guobao and I met to discuss. Of course, the National Treasure does not admit that such things have happened. Zhang said yes, and they promised to "investigate it." Well, investigating it yielded nothing.

YC: By December 2016, you changed lawyers for Xie Yang and hired Chen Jiangang and Liu Zhengqing, one in Beijing and the other in Guangzhou.

Guiqiu: I remember Xie Yang got a letter asking me to ask Jiangang to take his case. It makes sense to change lawyers at this time, because Zhang Zhongshi and Lin Qilei have been working for a long time, and have not been able to see Xie Yang for more than a year.

YC: In the late summer and early autumn of 2016, you got new news from sources in the detention center and other friends you have mentioned. You announced several things at that time. Can you summarize what information you got at that time?

Gui Qiu: The information we received was about his torture, which was carried out in two stages. The first time was the six months he spent in RSDL, and the second time was the time he spent in the detention center. The RSDL period is terrible. He was forbidden to sleep, eat or move from a sitting position, and his leg was injured before being arrested. Too late to recover, swelling badly. They also tortured him with cigarettes, and several people blew smoke into his face. He doesn't smoke. The goal is to push his body to the limit until he can no longer stand it and his body will collapse. Then, under these conditions, they would let him sign the document. They will write whatever they want in the file, and all he has to do is sign his name. Xie Yang was struggling to even sign, let alone request to modify the false content, which is impossible in reality.

There are also psychological torture, including threatening him to lose my job, threatening my children's life and their place in school, and threatening our relatives, such as my brother. They all have jobs. There is also a nephew and others, and the authorities will threaten them, saying that it will affect their livelihoods.

So they tortured him physically and mentally, trying to make him surrender, and then they achieved their goal. What goal? Of course, let him sign the confession. Several 709 detainees have given up their confession, and they also want him to confess guilt. By the second half of 2016, around August, I got the news, and Xie Yang had not pleaded guilty at that time.

In the detention center, he was beaten by Yuan Jin. Yuan arranged for someone to monitor him, not let him use his money, or even buy him a toothbrush and toothpaste. He is not even allowed to have toilet paper.

YC: One thing I really want to know is, when did you know where he was held during the RSDL? what is it call? Do you know which street it is and what kind of place it is?

Guiqiu: You can never guess where it is. Deya Road, Kaifu District, Changsha City, is the retirement center for the old cadres of the National University of Defense Technology's first cadre retirement home. When I received that mysterious call in August 2015, I started to have a hunch. After seeing that person, I had an intuition that he might be locked up nearby, but I never confirmed with him. Later, someone told me that they specifically told me that he was being held in this place. Then I went there, but it was heavily guarded and I couldn't get in. I asked a friend to take my place, but after he entered, he could not go up to the second floor and was stopped by the armed police at the entrance to the first floor.

A few nights, I went to that street and looked around. I did this several times. 

YC: Please introduce yourself and tell us about the 709 incident: where are you and your experience. 

Jiangang: I am lawyer Chen Jiangang. I was at home in Beijing when the 709 crackdown occurred on July 9, 2015. At that time, I was still dealing with major cases and traveled frequently, so when the police came to see me, I was in Anhui, at a hearing in Mengcheng. Probably the national treasure of Fuyang City came to me; after the hearing, they let me get in the car and took me to the police. The officers there were not polite: they received a higher order to talk to me. 

After verifying my identity, they asked: "Do you know lawyer Wang Yu in Beijing? She was arrested, what do you think?" I said I knew that she was a good friend of mine. How do i feel? I said I believe this is persecution. Wang Yu is a lawyer and has not violated the law. The police officer started telling me: "The superiors asked us to give you a warning or order, if you want: Don't speak up for Wang Yu or other detained lawyers, don't write about them, don't associate with them," said roughly.   

YC: So do you represent anyone who is following 709?

Jiangang: Xie Yanyi's wife Yuan Shanshan entrusted me to represent him. After accepting her entrustment, I went to Tianjin twice and asked to visit Xie Yanyi and others. Needless to say, I was not allowed to meet him. 

YC: Later I learned that you and Xie Yang are very good friends. [Human Rights Lawyer] is a very close community, but your friendship with Xie is particularly strong. I remember that in the winter of 2015, you wrote an article "A Person Named Xie Yang", part of which was translated by our website. The first paragraph left a deep impression on me. You wrote: "From summer to autumn, from autumn to winter, it's snowing outside now. I don't know how my friend Xie Yang is doing..."  

Since you and Xie Yang are good friends, you probably also worked on a case together and miss him very much. Can you introduce Xie Yang, what kind of lawyer is he? 

Jiangang: First of all, Xie Yang has a very distinct personality. He was so brave that it was so arrogant. I can even say that sometimes he is reckless and rude. 

In fact, he started contacting human rights lawyers, and the time to deal with such cases was later than mine. But because he was suppressed as soon as he got started, he quickly invited lawyers from all over the country to help keep his license, so his situation is like that almost everyone in our lawyer circle knows him and also knows his bold personality. .  

Let me give you an example. He sued the Changsha Bureau of Justice and allowed him to continue his practice. 

YC: What year was that? 

Jiangang: Probably in 2013 and 2014, when he sued the Judicial Bureau to appear in court, lawyers flew from all over the country, together with local rights activists in Changsha, more than 200 people went to court. Xie Yang himself told me that even if he can't get his driver's license back, it's worth it.   

In a confrontation with officials of the Judicial Bureau in court, Xie Yang said a very famous sentence: "You are not a son of a bitch, you are parasitic on our lawyer." There are many incidents of this nature, and only he can do it or say it. Things. I regret not being able to fly over to appear in court.  

Two or three hundred people went to participate. The court originally planned to open a small court, but so many people came. China’s judicial system is much better than it is today; the judge actually agreed to allow so many people to attend, and in the largest courtroom, two to three hundred people can sit down. After Xie Yang said these words, the audience burst into thunderous applause. The judge knew there was no way to stop, so he didn't even bother to order them not to applaud. Starting from the lawyer system, the Bureau of Justice is basically making trouble for lawyers. Such trouble is normal. Xie Yang was treated like this, making him unable to practice. He took them to court for this, and dared to say this, in fact, venting the feelings of many other lawyers. This is why so many people go to his court meeting. Xie Yang thinks this is his highest achievement in life, and we tend to agree. 

YC: In other words, from the 709 crackdown to December 2016, when you took over Xie’s case, you were still going to different places to do human rights cases, right? Are there any outstanding cases in this time frame? 

Jiangang: A case in Fuyang, Anhui, involving a large number of people and a long court session. This is a group of deaf and mute bandits. The local government wants to turn them into a big case, essentially "killing civilians and claiming to kill the enemy", turning this group of deaf and mute into a dangerous mafia, the most ruthless. .   

A group of deaf-mute people interrogated a deaf-mute person in the morning and produced more than 20 pages of transcripts. One of the deaf-mute people admitted to having participated in more than 2,000 thefts. He still remembers their exact location, address, and hotels they visited. This is impossible, simply impossible. How could they get such a confession? The police called the public security bureaus across the country and asked them if there were any pending hotel thefts, and then said: "Report to us, and we will help you deal with it." Just like that, the thefts came from Shanghai, Beijing, Xinjiang and other parts of the country. The cases were filed in this public security bureau and printed out, forcing the deaf and mute people to confess to everyone. them. 

This case involves torture, and I will mention that some members of this gang were brutally treated within a few inches of their lives. Among them, defendant No. 3 was taken to the hospital after torture and almost died. Defendant No. 2 is a woman. In order to force her to agree to everything the police made up, they rubbed peppermint oil on her eyes and almost blinded her. Her eyesight is severely damaged. 

YC: How big is this gang? 

Jiangang: More than 30 people were charged. 

YC: How many people have been sentenced?

Jiangang: At least 20, and the longest is 12 years. That's right, my client, Defendant No. 1, was labeled the "mafia boss" of the organization.  

YC: How old is he?

Jiangang: He should be 50 years old, if not, he is probably this age. 

YC: Is he a rural or urban resident?

Jiangang: Live in the city and rent houses everywhere. In fact, if we study this topic carefully, it will involve the plight of the deaf-mute and other disabled people in Chinese society. 

YC: Mr. Chen, in December 2016, Xie Yang’s wife Chen Guiqiu invited you to be his lawyer. So what happened after that? 

Jiangang: When I received Guiqiu's request, I thought of a lawsuit in Dezhou, Shandong. What else happened at that time? [Human Rights Lawyer] Jiang Tianyong's disappearance case. The two incidents occurred roughly at the same time. Gui Qiu sent me a message, "Jiang Gang, Xie Yang has conveyed your request to defend him, can you do it?"

I said of course, how can I refuse? So in Texas, when the court was in session, I secretly looked at my mobile phone and saw a message from lawyer Tang Jitian that how many hours Jiang Tianyong had been missing, everyone should pay attention to the situation. We suddenly had a hunch that Jiang was in trouble. At that time, lawyers Liu Weiguo, Pang Kun, Fu Yonggang and our good friend Zheng Xiang appeared in court with me. We said that Jiang Tianyong may have something wrong. While discussing this matter, I said: "I may be going to Changsha to defend Xie Yang." This is the environment in which we received the news. Guiqiu sent me another message. She said: "Jiang Gang, if you accept Xie Yang's case, you must be mentally prepared to endure a lot of pressure." 

On December 19, 2016, I arrived in Changsha and signed a power of attorney with Guiqiu. I remember it very clearly that day, because I checked it and it was very thorough in my case notes. If it's not the 19th, it's the 20th. I took my ID and went to Changsha No. 3 Detention Center. 

YC: The second detention center. 

Jiangang: After I got there, I obviously wouldn't let me see Xie. The first trip was to submit documents to them. They said, "We will contact you within 24 hours" and asked me to leave my phone number and name and materials. I remember they made a copy for themselves. Then I left Changsha. This is the first time I have come to Changsha. 

YC: They let you visit for the second time?

Jiang Gang: Yes. The date is December 22, 2016. We got there about two days in advance. Then, accompanied by Sui Muqing, we went to the detention center. 

YC: What about Lawyer Liu Zhengqing? 

Jiangang: Lao Liu also arrived in Changsha. We arranged it. I remember he had met Xie Yang before me. Our division of labor: He went to court, I remember he went there to get the indictment, we basically divided our forces. 

On December 22, when I asked to meet, I first went to the reception hall of the detention center. They took my materials and said, "We will take you to see our director. Let's meet him first." The director told me... Of course, I know that they have made so many demands on me, in fact, it is to thank me. If they don't want to have a meeting, then they will just say "you can't have a meeting" and the matter will end. The reason they made all these requests to me was actually to show that they would let me attend the meeting. 

So their request was to abide by the law, comply with the regulations, not to disclose meeting information to the public, not to discuss this matter with other people, and then I agreed. 

YC: Mr. Chen, the first meeting between you and Xie Yang was on the morning of December 22, 2016, right? 

Jiangang: By the way, I met him in the morning, around 10:30. 

YC: Please explain in detail the West 2 meeting room reserved for Xie Yang. I am very interested in the details of the space, how big it is and how the room is arranged. Especially if there is a surveillance camera, how did you and Xie Yang separate? How do you talk to each other? These aspects are of great interest to me.  

Jiangang: It's like this: I think meeting room West 2 is similar to meeting room 1 West and West 3. The difference is that West No. 2 meeting room has a dedicated surveillance camera array, because other rooms do not have such intensive monitoring, only West No. 2. This may be a national standard: a small room with a metal grille in the middle, dividing it in half, with its own doors on both sides. The detainees were brought in from the inside, and the lawyers who came to visit were from outside. We came in through different doors from different directions. 

There is a surveillance camera directly above me, and its field of vision is aimed at Xie Yang's head and my face. The other camera is above and behind me. There may be two cameras, one in each corner. There is also a camera behind Xie Yang, there are at least three in total. Those two cameras can see my head and Xie Yang's face. In addition, there is a black object on my desk. I'm not sure what it is, but it looks like a large camera with the camera inside and can be rotated. I am also not sure if it can listen to us; the law does not allow them to eavesdrop on our conversations, but as we all know, the Communist Party does not respect Chinese law. 

YC: This is the first time you have met Xie Yang. As a good friend, your relationship is not only the relationship between lawyers and clients. How did you and Xie react to each other? 

Jiangang: Imagine that it has been one and a half years since he was arrested in July 2015 to the winter of 2016. We know very little about his situation. We only know that the news of his torture has leaked out. So after meeting with him, I know that he has been suffering because our lawyers deal with criminal cases and sensitive cases involving human rights. We know that torture is very common. So when I met him, I felt very sad. By then, Liu Zhengqing had already given him the file, so when Xie came in, he was holding a pile of documents in his hand. 

He was wearing the blue uniform of the detention center, with long hair and a stubble face. He was haggard and haggard, and his complexion was dark. When he came in, he was a miserable sight, a tortured man. 

He saw me and said: "Jiang Gang, you are here! I said, "Brother, you have suffered. The police then took away his handcuffs because he was restrained when he came in, and removed the handcuffs from his right hand while wearing his left hand. They handcuffed one of his right hands to a chair and let him write. We shook hands like this ; When I said "You have suffered", tears fell from the corners of his eyes. I haven't seen each other for a long time. This is the first time I have met. 

YC: Was there a policeman in the room during your meeting? 

Jiangang: The law stipulates that they cannot be there, so the police brought Xie in and left. But behind the camera, they were there looking at us. While talking, the police rushed in from behind Xie from time to time and said, "We have seen Xie Yang's mood change. Is he crying?" It was as if they would come in to warn us when they watched us. Xie Yang will turn around and say, "No, no, we're all right."   

YC: Okay, now let's talk about the details of your conversation and the transcript you made. 

Jiangang: When we first met, Xie Yang told me the gist of his story. I cannot transcribe because although I can see him today, I am not sure if I can see him again. So Xie Yang gave me a high-level summary of his experience, and I typed it out with very quick notes as I said it. Also, I didn't interrupt him, and Xie Yang wouldn't let him. "I will try my best to tell you now, and I will talk later." So I will type a line and click "Enter", keeping a rough note. . 

YC: In other words, when you are lucky enough to continue the visit, you have an outline of the event. 

Jiangang: Actually it is not an outline, but I have mastered the general situation. 

YC: Yes, I understand. This is a summary, just like you haven't watched a movie, but you know the summary. So in the meeting in the next few days, Xie Yang described in detail the torture he suffered during the detention of RSDL. You mentioned how the police rushed in regularly to ask him if he was emotional. Can you describe some of these emotional moments?

Jiangang: Thinking of the first meeting with Xie Yang, who had been imprisoned for a year and a half and suffered so much, he cried when he said it. When I saw him, he cried. After chatting, I said Sui Muqing came with me and he was waiting outside. Xie Yang cried when he heard him cry. When he went through his experience, when I took notes, when he talked about certain points in the story, he would cry. 

He was so badly abused that he could barely raise his head. The way he was deprived of sleep completely exhausted one's energy and spirit.  

The police told him: "Your daughter is Xie Yajuan? We know where she goes to school. I tell you, we know exactly which university your wife works in. Xie Yang, you also know how the traffic in Changsha is. The car accident is not surprising. Your wife and daughter were in a car accident..." The meaning is obvious, they can arrange an accident and kill both of them. Such remarks shocked Xie Yang. When I heard it, I was furious and hit the table with a punch. Damn, I'm going to kill these bastards! 

YC: Mr. Chen, would you please tell us, how was "Xie Yang Torture Records" written? 

Jiangang: I have created three transcripts in total, two of which have been released. I am going to disclose the third one on the occasion of the 709th anniversary this year. The first two are now available online, so I will skip the details. I met Xie Yang several times, today, tomorrow, morning and afternoon. This is how the visit was conducted. We just talk, and then I will take notes, sort it out in the hotel at night, and make an electronic version.

In the process, I encountered some interference. The police noticed that I kept meeting with Xie Yang and talked for a long time. I went one morning, and they told me to wait when I went back in the afternoon. how long? long wait. While I was waiting there, the guard was putting pressure on Xie Yang and said: "Xie Yang, no one can save you, of course it’s not your lawyer. To obey, that is, to believe in the party, believe in the government, and do what you should do. , Only in this way can the punishment be lightened.” They probably noticed that I was always coming, and wanted Xie Yang to know that I was useless to him.

During the three days from January 4 to 6, 2017, I remember that it was Wednesday to Friday, and I met him about six times. In these three days, I want to mention that when we went there last time, a strange thing happened. I still suspect that my meeting application form has been stolen. Liu Zhengqing's bag was lost during the interview, and many things were also lost.

During the last interview, I printed out the meeting minutes for Xie Yang to check and sign, but my application form was missing that time. I know the fact that I have enough copies in a folder, so why suddenly there are none? I asked the receptionist if he saw anyone moving any of my materials. The police officer who had known me for a while replied reflexively: "Don't ask me! Ask the boss! I don't know anything!" I knew what was going on as soon as I heard it, so I stopped asking. But I happened to have an extra copy, which was not placed in the folder where I usually store blank documents. I remember that I had been to Weihai, Shandong, and put two application forms in my bag. I have used one in Weihai and the other is in the EMS envelope. If I am right, someone has stolen my form and they don't know that I have a copy elsewhere. I found the last copy and used it to meet with Xie Yang and get his signature and signature.

When I finished this work and got two transcripts, it was before the Chinese New Year. The third report card comes from the meeting after the Lunar New Year. Fearing that they would not let me see Xie Yang again, I hurried back; it should be no later than seven or eight days after the new year. I flew back to Changsha, interviewed him one last time, and then produced the third transcript.

According to my original plan, I do not intend to publish these transcripts immediately. When Liu Zhengqing, I and several other lawyers in Hunan finalized this plan, their idea was to use transcripts as a deterrent. The threat of existence, if you will. My idea is not to let them know how powerful it is, not to use it, but to use it in exchange.

Because Xie Yanyi was released on bail at the time, my idea was to make a deal with Guobao to release Xie Yang and follow the same route as Xie Yanyi, but if we did not have leverage, they would not let him go.

That night, I asked Guiqiu to make a copy for the national treasure. However, when she came back, she did not do what I said; instead, she gave an excerpt from the national treasure. She didn't tell them where it came from. This greatly reduces its lethality and deterrence. Guiqiu took a paragraph of his own selection and said to the National Treasure: "Now I know that Xie Yang has been abused, and there is evidence." However, the National Treasure sneered at it and did not take it seriously, and the negotiation failed.

At the time I thought she gave everything to the national treasure, but they did not respond. Do they think it doesn't matter? I am very angry because in my opinion, it shouldn't be like this. I don't know that Guiqiu diluted my plan.

In January 2017, on January 18 at the earliest, I went to Xi'an on a business trip. I was working on a case during the day, and at the same time I kept in touch with Guiqiu. I heard that National Treasure didn't intend to let Xie Yang go, and didn't react at all. What's the big deal. So I was irritated that night and still don't know what Guiqiu did. 

Late on the night of January 19, I said to myself, since I have come to this point, I will take out my knife to fight.

I published these two transcripts on my blog and reposted them on Weibo. That's it. I basically didn't sleep that night. At dawn on the 19th, I was suddenly overwhelmed by the phone, and I lost my voice until the afternoon. There are so many calls from media organizations from overseas, from the United States, Hong Kong people, Taiwanese, Japanese, British, French, Germans, etc. I answered the phone without pause all day, and I recalled feeling the momentum throughout the process.

YC: Did this exceed your expectations? 

Jiangang: No, no, I expected it. I had expected that this incident of heart abuse would cause a lot of waves, but to be honest, I didn't expect it to be so big, because I have never seen such a media blizzard. Looking back at all the cases I know about, none of them has received as much attention and media coverage as the publication of torture transcripts. 

YC: After the publication of "Interview with Lawyer Xie Yang", how did Changsha react?

Guiqiu: No. After several days of silence, one day, six police officers came to our door. When they knocked on the door for the first time, I asked who they were. They said, "Let's go in and talk." I said "I won't let you in" and closed the door. They kept knocking on the door. I opened the door again, they said they were national treasures and asked to enter. Before I refused, they were already inside, they had stepped through the door, and I was under control. They didn't let me use my phone, they took my phone. It was around 8 o'clock in the morning, and my little daughter just got up and was about to go to the bathroom to brush her teeth. My eldest daughter is also at home and still sleeping because she has been studying the night before and has not yet gotten up. That's the way it is. National Treasure Road: "We want to take you there." I asked where. "Go to the Security Office of Hunan University." "I said my little daughter was at home. My dad was not at home when he returned to his hometown that day. I said I would take my daughter with us. So I asked her to come with us. We got in their car and went to the campus safety office. Once there , I found that the two rooms were crowded with national treasure officers. I was sitting in one of the rooms. They were also intimidating and coaxing, the purpose was to convince Xie Yang to confess, to keep silent and compromise. I refused to compromise. I severely rejected their ideas. I told them: "You must release Xie Yang, he did not commit a crime, you must release him. "My intention is to set him free. The National Treasure's plan is to let Xie Yang confess his guilt and probate his sentence. I said, "You can't sentence him, you can only release him." "So we were in a stalemate that day, which lasted for more than nine hours.

YC: Did they talk about the publicity of Xie Yang's torture case and its impact on foreign countries?

Guiqiu: Not a word. 

YC: After the transcript was exposed, you seemed to want to go abroad, but you were stopped by the border. 

Gui Qiu: Yes. They banned me from leaving the country and prevented me from leaving China. I tried it once on April 4, 2016. I heard that other people, such as Qiao Ling and their children, cannot leave China. So I tried it myself one day, on April 4, 2016, and I was also blocked. After that episode, I think maybe things will get better in the future. So in February 2017, yes, about February, I tried again. I went to Hong Kong by train from Guangzhou East Railway Station. But we were intercepted again at Guangzhou East Railway Station, and they said we could not cross the border. Not only that, they also detained my eldest daughter and separated her from me. There is no cell phone signal in that room, which makes me very worried. Then when I tried to get close to my daughter, they drove us away, look at her. But they chased us away, just like you chase away animals. Those people are very vicious. They also tried to confiscate my passport and my daughter's identity certificate, ostensibly for verification. I didn't give it to them, so there was a scuffle. I was very stubborn, so they said, "If you don't give us your ID, we will kick you out." This really makes me angry. At the scene, my youngest daughter had never seen her-she was two and a half years old, in fact, four years old. When the daughter saw her mother quarreling with strangers, she was kicked out and cursed. She started to have a nosebleed, not a normal nosebleed, but a puddle of blood lying on the ground.

YC: How long did they hold your eldest daughter?

Guiqiu: I remember she was detained for more than three hours. 

YC: How old is she?

Guiqiu: In 2016, she was 14 years old, not yet 15 years old. 

YC: Did she tell you what they did to her? 

Guiqiu: After being released and seeing me, he hugged me and cried. First of all, my daughter is a shy and introverted girl. Think about it. It was a checkpoint at the border crossing. Although we were driven farther, there were still a lot of people. But she cried loudly in my arms, out of control. The people around were staring at us, not knowing what happened. When she calmed down a little bit, I asked her what was wrong and why she had been detained for so long. She said they just let her sit in that room and didn't allow anyone to approach her. She wanted to text me, but found that her mobile phone had no signal, so she could only wait. She said she asked them what happened and said she wanted to see me. They replied, "We are dealing with your situation" and kept her here all the time. 

YC: So after that, you may have some understanding of your situation, right? What is your plan?

Guiqiu: Yes, I decided to leave China there and then go to Guangzhou East Railway Station. 

YC: After Xie Yang's torture was exposed, it caused a wave of attention around the world, because in the previous year and a half, observers could only speculate on the treatment of human rights lawyers detained in the 709 crackdown. So when the torture was exposed, it was like pulling a curtain in a dark room and seeing such a cruel scene. I think that after exposing the torture of Xie Yang, your pressure will follow. please tell us. 

Jiangang: Let me add one point. The publication process of the transcript was not smooth, because as soon as I posted it on my blog, it was deleted on the same day. Then I will republish it and they will delete it again. But in 2017, they still haven't completely demolished my account. 

In the process of posting and forwarding and answering questions from overseas media, I began to receive calls from the Bureau of Justice.  

YC: From the Beijing Judicial Bureau?

Jiangang: Yes, there are two levels: Beijing Municipal Bureau of Justice and Chaoyang District Justice Bureau. Most of our lawyers are monitored by the Municipal Bureau of Justice, and the one who contacted me is usually Zhu Yuzhu. 

YC: What is his military rank?

Jiangang: He may be the director of the lawyer management office. The director in front of him is Chai Lei, who is responsible for disqualifying Tang Jitian. 

Zhu Yuzhu called me a lot. "Jiang Gang, you come to the Judicial Bureau and you have an important issue to discuss." I will tell him that I am away on business and cannot go, I am attending a hearing, and so on. "Then when do you arrive in Beijing, come as soon as possible." The first time he was summoned to the Judicial Bureau because of Xie Yang's transcript was February 24, 2017. 

YC: That was too slow. It was a month after you published your transcript. Even taking into account the Spring Festival holiday, they are slow to act. 

Jiangang: Indeed, a bit inexplicable. In the beginning, even in Changsha, they did not expect such a thing to happen. Until...Beijing Judicial Bureau didn't know it. How did they learn about this? It was not until the international media caused an uproar that the central government, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, knew what had happened and thoroughly reprimanded the Bureau of Justice. This is what Zhu Yuzhu told me.  

Seeing him, Zhu said: "Jiangang, come to Jiangang and tell me what you are up to." Then "my friend, the central government is very angry now, and the Ministry of Justice has been scolding us,'How can you make things happen? That's it?'" Zhu said, the central government was very angry, and the Ministry of Justice is pursuing the matter. After finishing speaking, Zhu took out a thick stack of documents: "We got this from the national treasure. Did they sign in with you?" I said they had called. "Look, look through these materials." It is the transcript, the content of the transcript, and the reports of the international media, as well as the screenshots of my interview with the Voice of America. That was what he showed me and sent him the national treasure. Then he said, "My friend, doing this kind of thing is not good for your family. You have to think about them." I said, "Well, what do you want?" "Go ahead, stop writing articles, don't fan the flames, do not speak." 

Then I made my request. I said, "I really have nothing to ask. I can persuade Xie Yang and his wife. Xie Yanyi's in Beijing has already been released. Can your superiors convey my request to the Changsha authorities? They have been ignoring me. Can you do it for me? If you do this, I won't say anything. Xie Yang also said, and they let him go home." Zhu Yuzhu agreed. 

Do you know what they did? After meeting, they found Xie Yang, chatted with him, and said, "How are you?" Xie Yang said to them, "I'm fine." They showed him climbing stairs and the like, everything was fine . "Look, you said Xie Yang was tortured. It's ridiculous, Xie Yang himself said he was in good health." They prepared all these materials to attack me. Later, I remembered that on the evening of February 28th and March 1st, I saw a message on the train. I was on a business trip to Fujian and suddenly realized that they might come to arrest me next.  

Since March 1, the official media of the Chinese Communist Party and a large number of bloggers supported by the Chinese Communist Party have launched a full-scale offensive against me. Whatsapp conversations between Xie Yang and Jiang Tianyong, and Jiang Tianyong and Chen Guiqiu appeared on TV. Jiang Xiangchen suggested that she release the information, and gave her editing suggestions on how to format it. Jiang Tianyong was obviously tortured to succumb, saying "I will give whatever foreign media wants to hear" and so on, while Xie Yang was deceived. He never said that he was not tortured. But when the reporter asked "Are you in good health?" Xie Yang said "very good", they spread this as "evidence" that Xie Yang was not tortured. 

When I arrived, that is, when I arrived in Fujian by air and train, I was thinking, "Aren't they creating a media storm to arrest me? I will definitely be arrested." Although they did not name me, when They said that when the lawyer showed the document about Xie Yang's torture, the transcript of my name was scrolled on the TV screen, and I was convinced that my arrest was imminent.   

However... After the Spring Festival, Guiqiu never contacted me again. On my way to Changting, Fujian, I began to feel that she might be planning to leave China, or I was waiting for the result, just like waiting for another shoe reduce. At that moment, let me think about it. Someone contacted me and told me that Guiqiu and her daughter had gone to Thailand. I was very happy and sent a WeChat message saying "The truth is revealed, and I smiled happily". 

YC: This must be a very important development for you, because think about it, if they arrested you, they also arrested Guiqiu... 

Jiangang: My thoughts at the time were: The four most important figures here are Jiang Tianyong, Xie Yang, Chen Guiqiu, and me. Each of them is round with a 90-degree angle. If we were all arrested, the circle would be complete. Why? Xie Yang is the party involved. He said, “I was not tortured”; Jiang Tianyong was an accomplice, and he could say anything under torture, so he said: “I fabricated the torture story.” Chen Guiqiu is Xie Yang’s wife. Jiang’s conversation was intercepted; and, as a mother, if they threaten her daughter to intimidate her, let me tell you that she will say whatever they want her to say. The same is true for me. If they threaten me with my son, I will give in. There are no two ways. 

When I arrived in Changting, I was very anxious because during the trip I heard that Guiqiu and her daughters were arrested in Thailand. March 1st is when I got the news. It was then that I suddenly understood why the CCP began to attack us in the media before Guiqiu was brought back to China. I realized that the reason was that China had been 100% sure that they had ensured her deportation. The two are already in jail. I am in China and are under surveillance every step of the way. Chen Guiqiu was arrested in Thailand. So all that remains is a matter of time: as long as he sets foot on Chinese soil, Chen Jiangang will be arrested. So when I arrived at Changting, my mind was full of this idea. I thought, maybe it’s here, at the hotel where I stayed, the police can come to pick me up, so I arranged the result immediately, I handwritten a letter, and then recorded a short video and sent it to my friend just in case it happened. On my body. During the days in Changting, I went to court for trial, went out to eat during a break, and went back to court, and so on for a few days. I have been keeping in touch with my friends. One day when I was eating, I heard that the US government had rescued Chen Guiqiu. When I got the news in Changting, I was thinking that the reason why I was not arrested there was precisely because Chen Guiqiu was not sent back to China, otherwise I would definitely be arrested.

YC: Guiqiu, please briefly describe your experience of leaving China secretly and fleeing to freedom.

Guiqiu: After returning to Changsha, it was the Chinese New Year. I have been thinking about how to leave China. They also banned my eldest daughter from leaving the country. Although my youngest daughter holds US citizenship, I am not sure if she is also subject to the travel ban because she returned to China with her travel documents last time. In view of this situation, I started to get in touch with friends and plan how to leave. I got help from friends and was able to reach Thailand. I think I left before the tenth day of the Lunar New Year, which is about January 10th, which is February 16th. I remember that I arrived in the United States on March 17 and stayed for a month in the middle. Yes, I arrived in the United States on March 17. I left China on February 16th and arrived in the United States on March 17th. Between these dates, my experience in Thailand was like a thriller. 

YC: I seem to remember that Chinese agents brought your relatives to Thailand, or they were asked to send you a message for you to go back. 

Guiqiu: My relatives were taken to Thailand, a lot. My father has never been out of China, but he traveled abroad that time.

YC: Oh my god, the police brought your father to Thailand to find you, didn't they?

Gui Qiu: Yes. There were about 10 people in total, all of whom came here by plane. My father has never been abroad. It was his first time, and it was in this situation. this is correct. 

That's what National Treasures do. They plan this way and involve so many people. When I was in Thailand, they had a team of 10 people, including my father, my sister, and people from my hometown: village committee members, officials from my university and academic department, and of course officials from National Treasures and MSS. Own. 

I was discovered by Chinese agents. They took the Thai police directly to where I lived and took the three of us away. We are being held in an immigration prison. To be honest, in addition to thanking the U.S. government and friends who helped me get out, I also want to thank God for taking us to safety every step of the way. With the help of the U.S. Embassy, ​​after we were released from immigration prison, we patiently waited for the opportunity to go to the United States. 

Only when I arrived in the United States did I know that when I was arrested-on March 2nd-on March 1st, CCTV, Phoenix TV... 

YC: Phoenix Satellite TV, the notorious "fake foreign media", is based in Hong Kong but controlled by the CCP. 

Gui Qiu: Yes. The Global Times and these other official media claim that I fabricated allegations of torture, and that I fabricated everything. 

Jiangang: Since the CCP has carried out such a large-scale smear on me, and I am the only one who has a detailed understanding of this case, if the world knows the truth, I have to refute their lies. So I thought-I am used to writing things at night, I remember I received your call in the afternoon, and you recommended me to write an article. I said I was ready and I will start that night. You tell me not to miss the window of media coverage. I said that I have prepared the outline and will write it in the evening. I started that afternoon, about 10,000 words, how long did it take?

YC: Yes, maybe more than 10,000 words.

Jiangang: "How Xie Yang's Torture Records were Exposed" is that article. I wrote 13 subtitles, describing the whole process from beginning to end. It refuted the Communist Party's attack on me. This is my counterattack. Then I sent it. With the publication of this article, a new round of competition has begun. 

I wrote several articles after this article. Almost every time I publish an article, I receive a call from the Beijing Municipal Bureau of Justice within an hour. Zhu Yuzhu would say: "Jiang Gang, did you post another article? My friend, delete it right away. We will talk about it when you return to Beijing, but you delete it first." That's what he said. I received a call from Zhu on a tricycle while visiting customers in the detention center in Changting. I was very angry and said, "Did you not see them attacking me? They said I made up, and they said my transcript is fake; if I don't refute them, I know I will be arrested next. You are now Not letting me speak out is forcing me to let them trample on me at will. This won’t work, I must refute them.”

Later, I remembered that the Hunan Provincial Procuratorate launched a so-called "independent investigation" on whether Xie Yang was tortured. Let me remember what the article I wrote was called... "Issue about the'independent investigation' of the Hunan Procuratorate's torture of Xie Yang". Therefore, I wrote "How Xie Yang's Torture Records were Exposed" on March 2 and then published an article reviewing the "independent investigation" on March 5. By March 7, I wrote another article "The Consequences of Political Lies." Almost every time I publish an article, I receive a call from Zhu Yuzhu within an hour. 

Zhu Yuzhu told me that the central government is very angry about this issue. Zhu said that the Ministry of Justice cursed them with fists on the table. He said: "At the Beijing Judicial Bureau, our work can no longer be done because of you. Our work has been messed up and cannot go on like this. The Ministry of Justice is very angry. They curse us every day... "The other sentence of his is, "Now the entire Judicial Bureau has been delayed by your case." Zhu would say this every time. 

YC: Didn't they do anything with your license?

Jiangang: Of course there is! Threatening lawyers is part of their SOP. When summoned by the Municipal and District Judicial Bureau, Zhu Yuzhu threatened me with the Lawyers Practice Management Regulations, saying that I violated discipline and would face punishment. Also, my offense is serious enough to affect my wife and children. I can't get out of this matter. I have all the text of our conversation; I have kept his text.  

They not only targeted me but also my law firm. I am a partner in our small company. The authorities went to our office and asked for all the cases and client documents I had handled. 

Threaten your family, your career, your law firm, and then put pressure on you through your colleagues; the next step will be to "rectify" the law firm and suspend its business.  

YC: What case are you dealing with in Changting? Can you briefly describe it? 

Jiangang: The client is an official accused of corruption. He is the director of the Public Security Bureau. 

Regarding this type of customer, there are two points to note. I believe they apply to all "official crime" cases in China. On the one hand, none of these people are innocent. They were found guilty, not to mention the director, the director of the neighborhood committee and the village head, all of whom had committed the crime. They embezzled and accepted bribes and abused their power; they got what they deserved, everyone. But at the same time, they have all been wronged. Why should I say this? The hundreds of millions of yuan they are accused of embezzling are often fictitious because of their crimes. 

Most people are afraid to fight back. Few people hire us [human rights lawyers] to defend. In most cases, they feel, "I have followed the party all my life and enjoyed my status. Now the party has abandoned me and accused me, but they have spared my life. If I spend 10 or 20 years in prison, Let's do it." This is how most of them accept it. This is the state of life of Chinese officials, awaiting one of their destinies. The clients I represent have suffered extremely painful torture, and I will reveal the details in the future. 

YC: Can you give us some examples?

Jiangang: The viewers of our civilized country and civilized society cannot imagine how ruthless the CCP’s Discipline Inspection Commission is to these party officials. 

Once in the hands of the CIA, suicide is impossible, so whenever you see party media reporting that someone committed suicide during an investigation by the CIA, you can know that it is not suicide by your judgment. It's homicide.  

For example, what kind of torture my client has suffered? When CDI officials interrogate him, they will play with their mobile phones, or flip through magazines or files, sit on a chair in the room, and let my client crawl around the room like The dogs form a circle. Sometimes they would let him crawl back and forth under the table. They let him crawl in this small room like a dog for two hours, three hours, four hours, again and again, bending over and sweating. When the time is up, the CDI interrogator will bring ice water, ice cubes in a bucket of cold water, and pour the ice from his collar onto his shirt. So my clients often have backaches. I remember when we went to court, he was hunched. He said that his back suffered long-term pain due to this torture. And this method shows no signs of abuse, and you can't tell what kind of torture he has suffered. There are still many cruel tortures like this. 

YC: Now let's talk about the circumstances under which the "10-second question" is generated. 

Construction of the port: March, March 24-I have a record-on March 24, when I left Fujian for Beijing, while waiting for boarding at the airport, I made the first short video called "10 Questions in seconds". WeChat only allows 10 seconds of video, which is just enough for two lines. It was in March that the Chinese Communist Party’s media launched a full-scale attack on me and denied the torture. I have written a lot of articles, and we have good reasons to refute these attacks. In order to get more attention on this issue and let more people see it and hear it, I suddenly had this idea and recorded a series of "10-second questions" at the airport. 

The CCP claimed that there was no torture, but we doubt that Xie Yang was not tortured. If he has not been tortured, why has no one asked him? Why not let him speak for himself? Why don't they show the video of his interrogation? Why is he not allowed to meet with his lawyer? If what the party does is legal...I see these things anyway. 

YC: How many people ended up recording a 10-second question? 

Jiangang: About 100 lawyers and citizens participated. When we compiled these 10-second videos, the results were very impressive. Now, every time I see one of them on the Internet, I still feel very excited and laugh a lot. Why? Lawyers come from all over the country and speak different dialects in different environments and different tones. Some were in the car, some were topless, some were recording in the snow, and some were having fun in the amusement park. 

YC: These battles of wits and courage continued until around April. Now I remember that around this time, some Hunanese arrived in Beijing. When did this happen and what does it mean? 

Jiangang: It was mid-April. I would say so. Since I started to deal with human rights cases, I have not seen such concentrated attention, huge attention from the international community and the media from so many countries. By February, the ambassadors of 11 countries wrote a joint letter, and the ambassador to China wrote to the person in charge of the Ministry of Public Security. I think it was Guo Shengkun back then. They expressed concern about the arrest of lawyers in the People's Republic of China and the use of torture by the authorities, and they asked the Chinese government to investigate the matter. As for the exact date of this letter, I must check my case record. 

YC: A Canadian newspaper first reported this letter in April. 

Jiangang: We handed this case to the most powerful grand jury, and let the Chinese people, the international media and the international community serve as the grand jury, and let these people judge it, which brought continuous pressure to the Chinese government. 

About April 12th, I received a call. Zhu Yuzhu said, "No matter what happens tomorrow, you must come to the Judicial Bureau. You must come." Because I was indeed in Beijing at that time, I couldn't refuse, so I went the next day. The meeting was held at the Justice Bureau of Chaoyang District. 

Two people who are well-known among Hunan lawyers came from Hunan, because these two people were the ones who suppressed them. One is Tang (Tang), Director of Hunan Provincial Department of Justice, and the other is Director Wang of Changsha City Justice Bureau. I think his full name is Wang Jian. Director Tang is very thin and wears glasses. He said: "This is the deal, Mr. Chen. Xie Yang is our Hunan lawyer, and we want to protect him."

I think, my goodness, he has been fucked cruelly treated for two years, and you have to say "protect" him. They said: "We have completed our work, and now we want to protect his lawyer's license. From now on, please forgive his case." I said: "This is not something you can demand and expect me to follow for no reason. "They said: "Xie Yang has decided to stop using your service." 

Tang said, "We have Xie Yang's documents, and we are not allowed to associate with you. Xie Yang did it." I asked to see it, and he showed me the document photos on his mobile phone. I asked where the original file is. "I didn't," he said. "Then where did you get this picture?" They said, "That's it, this file was taken in the detention center." I said, "If you got it from the detention center, then what you did is Illegal. This is a very obvious mistake. It violates the rules. How can the Ministry of Justice intervene in the detention center to meet the prisoners suspected of endangering national security? Who let you in? This is an official crime and unacceptable."

Then I asked them: "What are you going to do from now on? If you want me to leave this case, if I withdraw and end my participation, what will you exchange for? What is the best thing you can do Senior Director Tang from the Hunan Ministry of Justice said: "How about we do our job to ensure that Xie Yang maintains his license. Finally, Mr. Chen, you withdraw from this case." I said: "In view of the case Nature, I’m afraid it may be difficult. If Xie Yang is convicted, even if it is a suspended sentence, his license will still be revoked for the two charges he is charged with.” It was not until later that I realized that they had spent a long time studying the operation of the law. To find a way out, to create a crime that can be marked as a crime but does not require punishment. For a lawyer, not being penalized is enough to keep his license. This is the situation they described to me. 

So my condition for them is that they release Xie Yang in exchange for my withdrawal. It was April 13th and they said it would happen at the end of the month. 

Then I left. I took a photo outside the Justice Bureau, and I said to myself: I will keep the photo of this victory. 

On May 8, 2017, the Changsha City People's Court opened a trial against Xie Yang for "inciting subversion of state power." In court, Xie denied that he had been tortured, "admitted" his "guilt" and expressed "regret", allowing him to escape his sentence and be released on the same day. In an interview with Radio Free Asia in July 2017, Xie Yang said: “I was released after [and they] reached an agreement and I don’t want to relive what happened at that time.” Xie Yang continued to practice in Changsha, but was still barred from leaving the country. . 

Jiang Tianyong disappeared on November 21, 2016 and was secretly detained in RSDL. On August 22, 2017, the Changsha City Intermediate People's Court tried Jiang. The court did not provide detailed evidence, but described him as an agent of "overseas anti-China forces." Jiang was released on February 28, 2019, but is still under house arrest at his parents' home in Henan Province, where he is under 24-hour surveillance. 

Liu Zhengqing was disqualified from practicing by the Guangdong Provincial Department of Justice in January 2019. 

In the Xie Yang case, Chen Jiangang continued to be threatened, harassed and monitored by Beijing National Treasure and was barred from leaving the country. Nevertheless, in July 2019, Chen and his family left China secretly and arrived in the United States after a difficult journey. They have applied for political asylum.  

Chen Jiangang: "My career as a lawyer started in 2007 and ended in 2019. This is a big blow to me because I am still a developing and growing lawyer. In China, the opportunity for a person to shine is only It will last for a short time, and then the regime will extinguish your light." 

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